Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:03 And if the freedom democratic, I am confident that the democratic party will reunite on the basis of democratic principles and that together we will March towards a democratic victory in 1980.
Speaker 1 00:00:22 I think the democratic leadership understands that we need to bring those people into the party. We need to transform the party. We need to make the democratic party, a democratic party with a small gate.
Speaker 0 00:00:35 The future of the party is working class. And I think that what I represent and, and perhaps, you know, Senator Sanders also Senator Warren, there's a lot of working class champions in the democratic party. And I do think that that's the future.
Speaker 2 00:00:50 Welcome to talking strategy, making history. I'm Dick flux activist, retired professor of sociology at oh
Speaker 3 00:01:02 Guy, and I'm DACA, Leora more hall, a slightly less old guy, and also an activist and political strategist. And I'm this season on talking strategy, making history. We're going to be talking about one of the big questions for progressive strategy here in the United States, in what we're calling a Hitchhiker's guide to the democratic, the socialist organization in the United States that has historically thought about these things engaged in these questions in a way that tried to recognize the reality of American politics. And the reality of electoral politics is the democratic socialists of America and DSA, which has exploded in size in recent years. Uh, as the Bernie Sanders campaigns impact is felt in American politics, they've been wrestling with what was their historical perspective on American politics, which was a realignment strategy as we've discussed, which was one that, that saw socialists as being part of a broader coalitional effort to move the democratic party in a social democratic direction. It sounds like from talking to our friend, David <inaudible>, who was an employee and leader in DSA, and then also in our revolution, the group that came out of the Bernie Sanders campaign that there'd been sort of simmering debate and discontent about the role of socialists in the democratic party or the role of socialists in politics in the organization for a while. And David does a really good job of taking us through that history here. Hi, David, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 4 00:02:48 Thank you for having me. I'm very excited to be here and talking to you at all, friend and meeting, uh, for the first time, which is, uh, an honor. So
Speaker 3 00:02:58 This is very specifically about progressive and left strategy around the democratic party. And part of that really for us is about demystifying the party itself and helping progressives and socialists, and frankly, liberals get real power within it and use the democratic party to make change. And you've been involved in the leadership of two very key organizations that have both historically and very recently approach to this question. You were the youth section organizer and a long time activist rank and file activists in the democratic socialists of America. And then more recently a political director, I believe for our revolution.
Speaker 4 00:03:42 Yeah, and I would actually, I think more importantly for this, I was the deputy director of the democratic socialists of America before becoming the political director of our revolution. I was a key part of DSA is like electoral rebirth
Speaker 3 00:03:57 At that. Well that let's just jump right in. That's the first thing that we'd really love to hear about is the explosion in membership of DSA w uh, what kind of changes in DSA has perspective and activity in electoral politics came, you know, around the time of the, the, the big boom
Speaker 4 00:04:16 DSA is famous for, for people who are, you know, sophisticated politically of being a tie to a realignment strategy, um, that we'll define later on, but that had kind of already gone to the wayside years before, uh, the boom. So DSA as I, when I became staff had already begun, you know, largely not focused on internal democratic party work and essentially viewed itself as, you know, trying to elect pro good Progressive's, it didn't necessarily feel the need to endorse everyone who ever every president who is running on the democratic ticket, which you know, which is kind of a big deal, but DSA didn't endorse Joe Biden, but DSA didn't endorse Barack Obama in his second term, or had him nor did endorse Hillary Clinton in 2016. So there are already some things that are kind of in play leading up to the, the explosion of members, but what is key, you know, going into this, when I joined rejoined staff as the deputy director in 2016, was you already saw how Bernie Sanders really changed the dynamics of running as an open democratic socialist.
Speaker 4 00:05:32 So the, the anecdote I always give is, you know, DSA went from having our money returned, uh, which is the example when I was the youth section organizer, as deraco pointed out, um, when I was staffed, then DSA formed a political federal political action committee to raise money around Bernie Sanders, but it also gave a donation to now current Connecticut governor, uh, Ned Lamont, um, when he was running for Senate against Jolia Roman and Ned Lamont sent the money back after the New York post wrote credit, unfair article are actually very accurate, but unfair article, uh, that I'm sure the Lieberman campaign, uh, planted, um, to the point. So we went from having our money returned to people, asking for our endorsement, and we were kind of totally caught off guard because we had just been giving out the endorsement to whom we felt like it, and didn't really have to create a process.
Speaker 4 00:06:22 So what happened at first? Um, and then I think the explosion of membership, you know, comes into this is we were, when I was staff, especially I got assigned to dealing with these national endorsement questions. DSA was more openly willing to endorse non Democrats, although it had already done that already, um, historically, and in San Francisco near where you guys are from had endorse greens when there were, um, chancellor of non-majority party. Um, and also just really emphasizing that we wanted people to be democratic socialists, get the endorsement, though, that was partly done, have a little way to limit actually, who was requesting endorsement. It was, it was, so it was a political question, but it was also a pragmatic question, a capacity question, really a capacity question. Yeah. But what really changed ultimately is the volunteer capacity. You know, when we supported Bernie Sanders in 2006 for his Senate run, which was really impressive work, given the size of DSA at the time, which probably four or 5,000 people, you know, we did numerous house parties.
Speaker 4 00:07:29 We raised $60,000 from, for the pack, but that was really just people kind of getting together to do parties. There wasn't any phone banking. There was no one going to Vermont to knock on doors. You know, that's completely different now where you had this entry of new people, largely young, I mean, statistics show, it was probably like 80% under 30, if not higher, um, who are looking for something to do. And DSA effectively became democratic socialists with a small D small democratic clubs with a big D you know, and very much so we're acting as, you know, political forces in their communities that you would typically find in like a reform club, which, but given the volunteer capacity was so strong, even if the national endorsement only men, a graphic, you know, and maybe a nice webinar, people really did want the DSA endorsement because you could count on such volunteer capacity.
Speaker 4 00:08:27 And I think that is like a substantial way to look at the change. It was that key volunteer capacity that's really made DSA a powerhouse in certain communities and cities, especially compared to, I think, which we'll probably go into the other kind of liberal left social democratic, or any crap forces that just, that also have their own successes. But I think DSA really does take the cake and turn in terms of like being able to really deliver as a organization in a down-ballot way, not necessarily on a federal way, but we can get into that.
Speaker 3 00:09:01 So that's interesting. So what you're pointing out is that not only was there a political shift, a shift in the analysis of the leadership of DSA about electoral politics that predated the Burnie presidential run. And I want to talk about that, but also that the key to successes that DSA has had since then has been in, because they've created a, an activist base that can deliver electoral resources, vault knocks on doors, some money, um, and using that to put better people in power, better people in office, most of whom are Democrats was, is that a fair description of at least the, what the program has looked like on the local level?
Speaker 4 00:09:48 Yeah. And that's totally fair. I think the one Javier I would add to that is DSA sometimes works in coalition sometimes doesn't, which I think is the broader, bigger break. You know, whereas the DSA that I knew was always looking for coalitions, not really seeking to be the only force. And I think in my home state, my home state that I've returned to New York, you know, DSA played a real role in electing Julia Salazar to the state Senate in 2018, getting out of pro real estate Democrat. And it played less of a role compared to the rest of the liberal left in getting rid of the independent democratic conference, uh, which were the state senators who were caucusing with the Republicans to keep the majority to stop progressive reforms. So DSA in its recent, um, 2020 states and elections sometimes teamed up with groups like the family's party, sometimes not when the end is, you know, the numbers spoke for itself and the essay can say it elected five, you know, state senators are our state legislators because some are assembly, some are senators.
Speaker 3 00:10:52 Great. So one more follow-up and then I'm going to turn it over to Dick for a couple of questions, but just to give folks a little bit of a historical context, when you describe this idea that it started to take hold when you were on staff. And just before that, just couple of years before the Bernie Sanders campaign for president, you're saying there was a shift away from something known as the realignment strategy and the idea of, of DSA say not endorsing the democratic nominee for president, whether that's Hillary Clinton or, um, or before that Barack Obama for reelection, that was a shift away from something that DSA was known for. I mean, can you spell that out? What, what was it a shift away from and why was that noteworthy? Um, and I asked because a lot of people when, uh, when DSA D you know, uh, sort of priests predetermined their lack of endorsement of Joe Biden, um, during the primary, a lot of people were like, whoa, but it's a democratic socialist organization. Of course it wouldn't endorse a presidential candidate that wasn't a democratic socialist and here's folks like Dick and I old DSA or so we're like, that's the most inaccurate statement about DSA that I could think of historically, but there was something shifted. Do you want to describe that for our listeners sort of politically or ideologically to
Speaker 4 00:12:17 Me, the realignment strategy has several prongs. So the idea is that literally you want to shift the democratic party and to make it to a social democratic party, which I think is something that a lot of critics of it don't fully get. Cause they think that DSA things are thought that the Democrats were going to become a socialist party. That was never really the goal, as far as I understood it. That means you would actually have to engage in serious intro party work, uh, such as, and we can go into that, but essentially Brian for committees chipping the platform and making sure party rules are written correctly and really shifting the policy and who is, and how the party orients itself towards then the last third part is like, you know, I would say mass institutions, such as the labor movement, you know, women's rights, movement, organizations of color, especially black led organizations, um, and how, and how you can build, you know, a constituency that could really advance a social democratic agenda.
Speaker 4 00:13:15 Um, and I think it's always important to remember, you know, in history is that DIA de SOC, which was like the first organization that pushed this before it merged with the new American movement, there was the democratic socialist organizing committee merchants, the Numerica movement, but in 82 to form DSA, but de SOC was the original incubator of the realignment strategy as, as it was known, you know, didn't endorse Jimmy Carter in 1980 after supporting, um, Ted Kennedy, his as his primary challenger, um, that year. I didn't remember that. Yeah. And I think that that's, um, important to remember because that's somewhat analogous to the Clinton, uh, Sanders 2016, not totally but somewhat. And I think that there was an overcorrection somewhat, and that's, that's my editorializing, but I an understandable one in all fairness that then DSA, you know, by 84 endorses, um, Walter Mondale over the more progressive Jesse Jackson, um, and then definitely supports him in his race for presidency. And then by ADA, you know, endorses, um, Jesse Jackson and the primary, but also ultimately supports Dukakis and then stays supporting democratic presidential nominees for some time, BSA dill, historically focused on coalition work and building those kinds of mass organizations, but not necessarily to shake the democratic party and then especially DSA members just didn't I think for very reason, for various reasons, primarily probably because they felt it wasn't effective use of their time as a smaller organization stopped in opinion, doing that kind of inter-party work that was necessary, but, um, to really effectively create realignment.
Speaker 3 00:14:58 Let me just underline that and, and, and verify that for you, that in my time in DSA, as a staff person and a really active person in the nineties, there was the analysis you described, like, Hey, somebody should go in and change the democratic party, but DSA was not doing it. There was no actual inside program, um, which often meant, like, I was just always reminded of the old sub genius quote that we would get all of the guilt and none of the sex. So it meant going into left spaces and pee and being blamed for everything that any Democrat had done horrible. Cause we would vote for Democrats, but we weren't actually in there fighting back, changing, having any real program.
Speaker 4 00:15:38 Yeah. And I think that's a good point. And I think the one thing I'd also add in terms of like the minutia history that I think is really valuable is DSA in the nineties. You know, at one point in DC, before I became the DC staff, her, you know, about five years ago, 20 years before me, they had tried to build a DC presence, working, helping work with Ron Dellums, uh, who was a DSA member in Congress and Bernie Sanders, you know, to create the progressional, harass of caucus, working with the Institute for policy studies. But these are things that it's the classic where DSA becomes a victim of its own success. Um, in that they create these institutions that eventually like don't need them or even to walk them around. It's not like this congressional progressive caucus needed DSA, you know, to thrive. And I think that the other classic example of this is which I brought up numerous to people who critique the realignment strategy is that, you know, D D SOC successfully used the, what, what then were the midterm conventions to push progressive reforms in the party.
Speaker 4 00:16:40 And then the democratic leadership got rid of these midterm interventions. So those are like things that I think are such critical parts of history, then you can't judge DSA and realignment without really acknowledging that. Right. If it, if it hadn't been working there wouldn't have been so many attacks on it, you know, um, to make it underwhelming. And then overall though, I think that what realignment couldn't account for which I think is very important and actually it does influence also why so many people are attracted to socialism today is that neo-liberalism really was a dominant trend after the fall of the Soviet union. And what happened in the democratic party, the United States is similarly happened to social democratic and socialist parties around Europe, and that there was a move towards accepting neo-liberalism and that's not you th there's no, and there's nothing DSA could have done. I think even under more favorable conditions to, to stop my
Speaker 2 00:17:31 Memories, go back to Mike Harrington as one of the main architects of this realignment strategy. And I always felt that he didn't really have a, as you were alluding to a concrete plan for actually changing the democratic party. So Mike Harrington's idea of realignment, I think might be traced back to the sixties. And before the idea was to change the democratic party by driving the Dixiecrats out by creating a party that was more ideologically coherent around the new deal, uh, and its legacy. And I think he believed that the labor movement, actual trade union leadership would take a national lead in remaking the party, which I don't think ever came to fruition. Although he probably felt that because there were at least on a state level in say New York or Michigan or California, Wisconsin, um, state levels, uh, activity of that really was very powerful in changing the party in those particular states.
Speaker 2 00:18:42 I'm talking about in the post-World war II period, but even in New York before that. But, uh, I always felt Mike didn't have any idea really how to implement realignment in the actual conditions of the, of the seventies and eighties, the Kennedy case that you mentioned, my wife Mickey was recruited to be a Kennedy delegate by her DSA Komisar, as we used to call him his name was Harold Meyerson, Harold Meyerson. And, um, and, and there was a social, uh, DSA caucus, uh, at the democratic convention of 1980, which to me highlighted the problem at the time, which was there were about 60 delegates out of thousands who were yeah. A members and they met, and it was a cover, you know, that there was a good deal of press coverage, but the press was entirely European. There wasn't a single American media covering this caucus.
Speaker 2 00:19:45 Um, and, and so, uh, I always, I didn't quite understand where Mike thought things would go, uh, because he was so dependent on the AFL CIO or the CIO type leaders, as well as other social movement, uh, personalities and leaders in thinking that this is where the coalition could come from. I'm just giving a little more historical filler. But now I think we w w we're going to try in this podcast to put some more, very contemporary meaning around the idea of realignment, meaning a struggle within the party to make it a people's party, a democratic small D party, uh, as you, as you said before, a party that really can be in European terms seen as more social democratic, um, can that happen? Uh, not without a lot of work. Uh, that's what we think. So I'm wondering what you think is going on now that, uh, not only DSA, but our, which you've been a key staff member of, um, is, is there that kind of strategic thinking beyond the idea of primary being, um, these established, uh, uh, court, more corporate oriented Democrats, which itself is a, that is a strategy, but it can't be the only, the only path, right, is that right?
Speaker 4 00:21:11 What you can look at it for our revolution. It really was a continuation of the Bernie Sanders 2016 campaign that we can get into other elements of this. But I think the way Larry Cohen, its founding chair, who's still active, used to describe its strategy, roughly as like a triangle with, uh, groups in the middle, you know, the base of its, you know, the, and the members and one side is electing candidates on other side is social movement and legislative work such as Medicare for all campaign finance reform, immigrants rights and the bottom. Um, not for any particular order, but his, his party reform work. Um, so it seemed so party reform work was seen distinct, but still as part of a general strategy of advancing legislation, um, and electing candidates. So, which, and so in certain ways I felt, you know, especially by 20 17, 20 18, that our revolution, um, in many ways was picking up the mantle that DSA was leaving behind.
Speaker 4 00:22:22 And I think it's so it's. So even though I said, DSA wasn't as interested in realignment, DSA, didn't totally askew, um, party work, uh, by an impact party, I'm really going to be freeing for the democratic party in this case, unless I specified differently, um, you know, until like 2018, because when Keith Alison, uh, ran for chair of the democratic national committee, you know, DSA, then the act under the leadership of DSA unanimously endorsed him to do that position, you know, and, and put out a statement. And there was, I even had like a Facebook profile picture of like, I'm a democratic socialist for Keith Ellison, you know? So there was actual, genuine enthusiasm for this, from the DSA membership, because it was part of the way
Speaker 3 00:23:07 He lost. And then it was like, we just went,
Speaker 4 00:23:10 Well, I think that's part of it, but I don't think that's the reason why. So I think Keith loses, um, and DSA kind of starts, and that's what I want to focus on our religion. But I think DSA at this point also starts realizing that like it's bread and butter, you know, is really getting people elected with our revolution, picking up this mantle and doing what I, what, you know, it was described as Dem enter. Cause there was the Dem exit for all these people saying, they're going to leave the democratic party if Bernie doesn't, but there were actually lots of people, probably more people who were like, wow, I want to get involved in the democratic party. Now fed Bernie's engaged me. And there was a genuine sense of getting people excited about doing democratic party reform work. And I think worked at Rocca when I was spoke to him a year ago, he said something that I never forgot.
Speaker 4 00:23:59 And I think it's really important to also distinguish the, what were the motivators. Um, whereas if you looked at the democracy for America folks, uh, who came out of the Howard Dean campaign, when they discussed party reform work, they were like, we w the Democrat party is good. We want to make it even better. Whereas our revolution folks looked at the Democrat party as bad it stopping our nominee. Therefore we want to change it. And DSA kind of had to sin the majority of DSA. By that point, it was like, the democratic party is bad, so we don't want, we don't care what happens to it. So then you have this unorganized organized effort, and I'm using that term very specifically where there was so much energy coming from the Berniecrats and our revolution, to my opinion, just never staffed adequately, um, ended up folks.
Speaker 4 00:24:45 So there was never a full-time staff or outside of, I think sometime in 2016, dedicated to just knowing what was happening with these different party reform efforts. And my staff time as political director was largely dedicated on this to the union reform commission coming out of the 2016 democratic national convention, which one, what? And that project one would at the neck, maybe like a one, a couple of things. Obstensively but I think, but what, but what I think the key thing to remember, I think, which is, I think more important for this discussion is the fact that you and I know the answer, but I bet you, most people who are acting don't know is because it was so inside baseball and that's not, ultimately, that's not, what's going to move grassroots activists. So, I mean, we're, deraco, you're pushed back on you a little bit. You're like, well, DSA moves away, but it's also like peop I think even if you were a DSA member who was not, who is interested in this work, it's, if your eyes are going to glaze over, if I start talking to you about,
Speaker 3 00:25:36 About, about superdelegate, I I'm going to push back because, because actually, well, my pushback is that actually a lot of these seemingly arcane things became very time-consuming and almost, uh, elements of obsession in the Bernie world. And so what's frustrating is that when there was real progress made on it, um, and folks like Cohen and others that are, you know, were Bernie lieutenants, you know, deserve a tremendous, you know, applause for getting rid of super delegates, that that's a big deal. And, and yet there was such bad communication about, and mobilization about party reform. And I think this goes back to the 2016 campaign and, and convention as well. Um, that, like, I just don't think that it's a dichotomy between the most minute parts of the bylaws and a giant thing, like transforming the way that Democrats nominate the presidential nominee, you know, that disempowers the party elites.
Speaker 3 00:26:47 That's an achievement that I was like, isn't that proof of progress. I mean, can you see how, from my perspective, it's like, how did we go the ironies of going from my day as a democratic socialist in the democratic party, as Dick described where there's like 60 people at the 1980 convention for, for, you know, that are there, uh, on a quixotic campaign to nominate Ted Kennedy to 2016, there's 40% of the convention are people who voted for a Jewish democratic socialist, how the hell are we not taking advantage of that within the party and still debating this stuff, you know, four years later that's how are we
Speaker 4 00:27:34 Here? But I think what it speaks to two things. So one is, I think that gains were made from the uniform commission. I just don't think that they were pitched to a way that actually got people excited. And some of the stuff was really important about transparency, what you're saying about what you have this moment. That's what I was getting at was that there wasn't actually the resources dedicated to building and supporting people who wanted to do this. So people would run for office, have no idea about, but I mean, we more talk about the people running for office, uh, you know, for doc catcher to Senator, but there were lots of people wanting to run for committees and had no idea what they were doing, whereas committees, you know, party leadership and, you know, kind of felt lost. And that was very fair. And, you know, and it's like, you can't end, you know, work all from the traditional marks here, you know, we're materialists.
Speaker 4 00:28:25 And like, if people aren't actually organizing that, that's not, there's not gonna be a dialectic materialism. There's going to be what those people go in and then become part of the thing or they get bored and they leave. And I think that was, you know, a huge issue. And I think what I will say is like, you know, prepping to talk to you guys. I was like, oh, let me see what our resolutions up to in party reform that went to the issues it's off. They don't even talk about it now in their list of issues. Um, so I went to their blog and they kind of mentioned making the party more progressive, but I think now I see like our revolution doesn't need you after spending all that time and energy, you know, working on getting chairs elective, you know, I don't know how much he cares. And I think part of that stems from, you know, I think there was some demobilization, but more demoralization because at the convention was, you know, had, had to be virtual for obviously for the pad COVID and pandemic reasons. And you couldn't get the kind of energy of getting the Bernie delegates together, you know, and that, that is really important. That was really important for 2016 of like building energy between DSM our revolution and all these other brain delegate networks. If you just can't get that doing it virtually, it's just not the same feeling.
Speaker 2 00:29:36 This is the point I would love to get across to people. And it, because it inspires at times, here is a party that at its base is very reflective of the social movements of our era, uh, in terms of the people who are active in the party or who support the party, uh, and, and candidates within the party. But that's social movement. MALDI democratic base. Doesn't have, isn't empowered in shaping the behavior of the party in power. Um, and so maybe in the next period, if we happen to have more power nationally as a party, uh, that kind of, uh, thinking will be able to be articulated better. And I always come back to things like the fact that here in California, we have, we have a super majority of Democrats in the legislature, democratic governor, many, many, uh, people in office who articulate a reasonably or quite progressive perspective.
Speaker 2 00:30:42 And yet, uh, the legislature is constantly adopting very diluted, uh, uh, measures to help people even in deep crisis. Um, and that's because of the power of the corporate lobbies, uh, to a very great extent, but not, that's not the only factor, but it's one of the key ones. So that's where I think Derek and I are kind of pushing toward, toward, uh, you know, a vision of the future. If people want, can work within the democratic party, what what's their aim and what's the, what can guide them may revolve around the very question of how does the party relate to corporate power. And, and it's always been a question on the side. Um, uh, and when Clinton was president, uh, party reversed course and decided Alliance with the corporate elite was where it's at, uh, I'm simplifying, but not too much. I mean,
Speaker 4 00:31:43 I think there's two different streams to look at what you just asked. So I think one is the party itself. And so that's like not only the state committees, I keep harping on the state parties or the democratic national committee, but also the, uh, um, extra party organization. So that's, you know, at the, at the grass, at the grass tops, that's like the democratic governors association, the democratic congressional committee, these like million dollar organizations, um, that are dedicated to supporting candidates, you know, combats primaries down to, you know, the machine, whether it's ideological or not, whether it's the DSA electoral working group or just the patronage Tammany hall. Um, and I think that's very key because what I argue is that there's too much discussion of the party, you know, at its most like unsophisticated level at pretending it's a unitary organization, which I think the listeners here and you two would know, it's not, it's a collect, it's a patchwork of different organizations, but also that's critical too, because you can shape, you know, by building sometimes alternatives, you know, or working within those, you know, advancing something that's more responsive.
Speaker 3 00:33:06 Absolutely. So thanks a lot, David do holiday. Thanks Dick. Flax.
Speaker 2 00:33:11 Thanks Baraka. You'll be able to
Speaker 3 00:33:13 Hear all of this on our Patrion. That's patrion.com/t S M H. All right. Thanks everyone.
